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The insanity below began when Walter contributed a question to Carla's Labyrinth Purity Test:
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The insanity below began when Walter contributed a question to Carla's Labyrinth Purity Test:
Do you understand the Alph and Ralph riddle and why the answer works? From: Hazel ([email protected])
But the answer doesn't work, I think...? What if the guardman who told Sarah about one of them always lying and the other always telling the truth was the liar? What if both of them were liars anyway and could lie about one of them always telling the truth?
But then, it took me about two years or so to even figure out that the answer would work under normal circumstances, so I guess I shouldn't talk. :)
hazel [email protected]
From: Guy Dyson ([email protected])
I think this is irrelevant since Alph and Ralph didn't understand how it works.
Anyway, what if you have one guardian who either always lies or always tells the truth and you have the same two doors and one question.
This is still possible. Think about it.
Guy Christopher Dyson http://www.iinet.net.au/~chickens/Springs.html
From: Lindsey Tiamat ([email protected])
I think I understand why it works, at least I have always understood it... but now.... what if the blue guy (technical terms huh?) was the liar when he says " one of us always tells the truth and one of us always lies, that's a rule too..." maybe he was lying when he said that.... but maybe if Sarah had said up instead of down the door would have led her directly to the castle... we can only imagine, we will never truly know! confusing huh?
Lindsey =0)
From: Cyggy ([email protected])
Maybe the one of them who is lying is lying about the whole thing....and the riddle in itself is a lie...
-Cyggy
From: [email protected] (Ure)
I just think that the whole thing can't work, because if one of them always lies and one always tells the truth, then what would happen if the one who said that was lying? But that would make him the one that always lies, but he couldn't be because he just said that one of them always lies. Therefore he was telling the truth. I just confused myself. That didn't end up the way it usually does.
Oh well
Frank
From: Ben H. ([email protected])
I think to make logical sense, the truth-telling/lying thing only applies to the specific question about the labyrinth. Otherwise, the riddle itself _could_ very well be a lie. Come to think of it, having the rules explained to you at the very beginning seems like a very *fair* way to do things, don't you think? And Sara is quite ready to believe that the door is telling the truth. Perhaps it _was_ supposed to be a lie? Oh to get in the minds of the writers... :)
Ben Haines Visit me at - http://www.iwu.edu/~bhaines
From: Walter Pullen ([email protected])
Guy Dyson dreamily mused:
Yes, this is a similar riddle to the Alph and Ralph one, but a little harder in that you only have one guard, so "would he tell me" can't be used. But again it's easily answerable if you truly understand how the first one works. You should ask: "If Hoggle were to ask you if this door leads to the castle, would you say 'yes'?"
Either way, the guard's answer is correct, where "yes" means the door you were asking about leads to the castle, and "no" means it leads to certain death. If the one guard happens to be a liar, and the door leads to the castle, he'd tell Hoggle "no", but he'll lie about that and tell you "yes". A truth teller would tell Hoggle "yes" and tell the truth about that so tell you "yes" as well.
The way to answer these and other variations is to, in Sarah's words in the novel, to "find a question you can put to either one, and get the same answer". A mathematical way to consider it is to have your question be the value one, where running it through a truth teller means +, and a liar means -. The "would he tell me this door leads to the castle" is either -+1 or +-1 (which = -1 always) depending on who you ask. The new variation above is either --1 or ++1 (which = +1 always).
Of course Alph and Ralph doesn't have to understand how their own riddle works. They just both have to either lie or tell the truth when the visitor asks their one question. It's up to the visitor to choose a door and take the consequences!
Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen :) [email protected] Get lost in my Labyrinth Web page: http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth.htm
From: Guy Dyson ([email protected])
Very good. Now how about three guardians, one truth, one lies, one does one or the other consistently and you may ask any one to ask any other one question.
But they have to understand well enough to know what the other will say and then figure out how they will answer it. I think the unconfident way the question was answered demonstates that it could well have been messed up anyway.
Finally, if this sort of stuff interests anyone out there, you should read "The Tiger and the Princess" and/or "What is the name of this book" by Raymond Smullyan who does these puzzles all the time over and over again.
Guy.
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From: Guy Dyson ([email protected])
Alright, I admit I was just being silly when I made up the three guardian scenario problem, but I have given it some thought and it is possible.
Here it is again: (reworded)
Sarah approaches two doors, one leads to the castle and the other to certain doom. There are three guardians and we know one will always tell the truth, one will always lie and the other consistantly does one or the other (that is always lies or always tells the truth) Sarah is told that she may ask any one of them (once) to ask any other (of her choice) one question and then he is to relay the answer to her.
What should she ask?
Guy Christopher Dyson http://www.iinet.net.au/~chickens/Springs.html
From: Walter Pullen ([email protected])
Certain doom? Shouldn't that be certain death? :) Anyway, so we either have two truth tellers and a liar, or two liars and a truth teller. Are you assuming that if the first one she asks is a liar, he'll invert the answer of the second other one she asks? If so then she should ask the first one, to ask a second one who's truth-telling/liar state is the opposite of his own, whether this particular door leads to the castle, and we've reduced this to the original riddle in the movie. If the first one is just going to relay the answer back to her without editing (as Sarah isn't actually asking him a question he can lie about), then she should just ask him, to ask any other, if they'd say yes about some particular door leading to the castle if Ludo asked them, and we've reduced this to the second form.
Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen :) [email protected] Get lost in my Labyrinth Web page: http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth.htm
My thoughts are:
I once concentrated long enough to figure out that Sarah had solved the riddle correctly. Jareth cheated her and chucked her into the oubliette. In the end, however, she did avoid certain death and reach the Castle at the center of the Labyrinth; I suppose you could say that despite winding up in the oubliette, she solved the riddle correctly.
Like to contribute anything to this page? Please E-mail me! I'd love to hear your comments and ideas.
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